tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post1602609650750886220..comments2023-12-17T16:13:06.670-05:00Comments on In a Godward direction: Restructuring the ChurchTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-11702225712984025502012-05-10T08:57:39.469-05:002012-05-10T08:57:39.469-05:00Thanks, Joe. I think that is the goal, but my conc...Thanks, Joe. I think that is the goal, but my concern is that micro-management will set in.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-22721844572342539212012-05-09T22:04:13.045-05:002012-05-09T22:04:13.045-05:00I completely agree with the expressed concerns of ...I completely agree with the expressed concerns of the original post. It is probably worthy of note in this specific conversation as well as the larger restructuring conversation that the most prophetic change in The Episcopal Church does not come from 815 or even General Convention as much as it does from the grassroots of the church. We all know this, but do we need to be reminded? Women's priesthood arose out of the local church and then was approved by GC. Bishop Robinson's historical election emerged at the diocesan level and then approved. The debate over open communion has emerged at the level of congregations. Perhaps then 815 and the Executive Council might do well to encourage the grassroots, congregations and dioceses to think about the way the church - 815, dioceses and congregations might work better together. Structure should serve not dictate especially for Episcopalians. We must not replicate the Anglican Covenant style of dictating structure from above and expect it to make sense in the local context. <br /><br />Joseph DugganJoe Dugganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05213826227329522249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-44767145534892753182012-02-17T16:51:46.042-05:002012-02-17T16:51:46.042-05:00Dr. Perkins, I'm afraid I'm losing the thr...Dr. Perkins, I'm afraid I'm losing the thread here. I did not say or intend to imply that God was only active in the world in people involved in mission. What I said is that God's mission is carried out through people -- and yes, that includes the inner prompting in the heart of one who has yet to hear the Word.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-8650632436660140692012-02-17T13:28:06.128-05:002012-02-17T13:28:06.128-05:00My response to your comment about God having no ac...My response to your comment about God having no activity in the world apart from people astounds me, if by people you mean those engaged in mission. The Parable of the Sheep and the Goats in Matthew 25 speaks to God's ongoing activity in the lives of all people--Christ present in them before the missionary arrives.The Rev. Dr. David Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341627321559726755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-12997983175186905902012-02-17T12:19:01.483-05:002012-02-17T12:19:01.483-05:00Thank you, Dr. Perkins. I think my issue is that I...Thank you, Dr. Perkins. I think my issue is that I did not hear this holistic understanding of mission in the talks by the PB and Bishop Sauls. The focus on the "national" -- perhaps understandable as that is where they work -- seemed not to take adequate stock of the rest of the church. That is the disconnect I find problematical.<br /><br />I'm not keen on your definition of mission, and prefer that in the BCP. I don't think God has an activity in the world without people -- so it is not just a matter of "joining in" to my mind, but doing what God wills us to do. Perhaps this is a distinction without a difference, but the "God's mission" language troubles me on a number of levels. It seems to me that God has given us a mission, and the mission is now ours (though not ours alone) to do -- or fail to do.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-84297487685536534262012-02-17T10:11:43.184-05:002012-02-17T10:11:43.184-05:00Mission is God's ongoing activity, calling all...Mission is God's ongoing activity, calling all people into union with the divine love. Our challenge as the church is to discern God's activity in the world and to join in that activity at the personal, congregational, diocesan, national, and international levels.<br /><br />The dichotomy between governance and mission is a false one (See Galatians 2; Acts 15). Governance serves mission; mission trumps all else. The Presiding Bishop and the Chief Operating Officer are seeking to restructure governance more fully in the service of mission.<br /><br />Why would we resist? Is it the $100,000? Is it the calling of an additional national meeting? Is it an additional deliberative body? The money can be found. And, an additional General Convention for this purpose can focus exclusively on mission and governance. Also, an additional commission would bring fresh eyes and new voices, outside the existing structures, into the dialogue.The Rev. Dr. David Perkinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13341627321559726755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-20202107239906447562012-02-15T09:57:57.166-05:002012-02-15T09:57:57.166-05:00Exactly so, Jesse. I think a deeply incarnational ...Exactly so, Jesse. I think a deeply incarnational approach is needed, holding body and spirit together. The "spirit of mission" ought not be neglected in the "work of mission." In a sense, this is why I favor using "ministry" for the work, and keeping "mission" as the driving force behind the ministry, its <i>raison d'ĂȘtre</i> in every sense of that Word (= <i>logos</i>).Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-18003934853553485012012-02-15T09:43:47.341-05:002012-02-15T09:43:47.341-05:00I agree with a lot in this post. To make explicit ...I agree with a lot in this post. To make explicit something I think you're hinting at, I think we need to talk more about what we might call a "spirituality of mission." (I'm adapting this idea from Gustavo Guitterez, who talks about the need for a "spirituality of liberation.") When we just put the focus on the stuff we do - all important stuff that needs to be done, like soup kitchens, shelters, etc. - we miss the deep personal conversion to a new way of life to which God in Christ calls us to.<br /><br />-Jesse ZinkJesse Zinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11186900475486233243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-87840165656012317752012-02-13T17:30:25.672-05:002012-02-13T17:30:25.672-05:00Thanks again, Mimi. I think it is very important t...Thanks again, Mimi. I think it is very important to keep returning to that definition, or rather, answers to questions about the nature of mission. It is so easy to recline in the fuzzy warmth of supposed familiarity, and forget the hard innersprings! Mission is foundational.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-79585109720536386012012-02-13T15:47:20.125-05:002012-02-13T15:47:20.125-05:00PS: Thanks for the reminder of the definition of m...PS: Thanks for the reminder of the definition of mission in the Prayer Book. No wonder that, at times, when I hear our leaders and others in the church speak of mission, I come away with only a fuzzy idea of what they're talking aboutJune Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-88731756054430453392012-02-13T14:00:15.969-05:002012-02-13T14:00:15.969-05:00Thanks, Mimi, and Daniel. These are the important ...Thanks, Mimi, and Daniel. These are the important neglected factors that I think need more attention from the leadership.<br /><br />As to polity, a document is forthcoming that attempts to lay it out in the committee hope helpful terms -- but there is indeed a tension between the "center" and the "edges"!Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-17660731803499500292012-02-13T12:07:20.403-05:002012-02-13T12:07:20.403-05:00There are two important aspects of our identity as...There are two important aspects of our identity as Episcopalians that are in tension. One is the hierarchical polity of this Church, a hierarchy of conventions and not of people. The property disputes and the attempts of some diocesan conventions to take their dioceses out of TEC rest on misunderstandings of our polity, seeing either diocesan conventions or vestries as having unlimited autonomy. The second is that, like politics, mission tends to be local. Only by holding these two in a healthy tension will we be able to move forward.Daniel Weirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11430381764138066595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-63019083198448938382012-02-12T17:37:52.502-05:002012-02-12T17:37:52.502-05:00Tobias, thanks for the reminder that prayer and wo...Tobias, thanks for the reminder that prayer and worship are part and parcel of the mission of the church.June Butlerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01723016934182800437noreply@blogger.com