tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post116596069365197041..comments2023-12-17T16:13:06.670-05:00Comments on In a Godward direction: Trouble in TanzaniaTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1168461972003146352007-01-10T15:46:00.000-05:002007-01-10T15:46:00.000-05:00Tobias, what is a good working definition of "eccl...Tobias, what is a good working definition of "ecclesiastical dispensationalism"? I have Googled with not much success. Portions of your essay are over my head - not your fault, simply because I don't know enough - but I could proceed with more understanding with a definition of that phrase.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166139769976954912006-12-14T18:42:00.000-05:002006-12-14T18:42:00.000-05:00very nicely said all round.Is there any question a...very nicely said all round.<BR/><BR/><I>Is there any question at all which Christ would rather have us do?</I><BR/><BR/>sadly, there apparently is. :(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166134115751024862006-12-14T17:08:00.000-05:002006-12-14T17:08:00.000-05:00Thank you, R., for your prayers, and Obadiah for y...Thank you, R., for your prayers, and Obadiah for your response. You also noted,<BR/><BR/><I>If I were the Tanzanians I would have let the matter of giving programs rest until the other communion matters were addressed. I guess some would have accused them of hypocisy in taking TEC money if they took that course.<BR/>I would have born that accusation - but I can understand why they decided not too.</I><BR/><BR/>And I think we are in agreement on this. I was trying to express why, in spite of understanding why they might do such a thing, I believe the action to be deeply wrong.<BR/><BR/>That noted, I am happy to report, and will put up a separate posting when I've the chance, that the Bishop with whom we have been working spoke against the action of the ACT - HOB, and he feels it does not "speak for the church" and he will continue to support the cooperative work we have undertaken. This is good news all round, I think. Thank God one bishop puts the Gospel above the purity code.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166083007961450742006-12-14T02:56:00.000-05:002006-12-14T02:56:00.000-05:00Tobias,Prayers for you, your community, and your f...Tobias,<BR/><BR/>Prayers for you, your community, and your friends in Tanzania as you find a grace-filled way to respond to this situation and meet God's call to help those in need.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07474786207149076221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166074538844097152006-12-14T00:35:00.000-05:002006-12-14T00:35:00.000-05:00Tobias,all of us from Tanzania, Australia or where...Tobias,<BR/>all of us from Tanzania, Australia or wherever will answer to a higher authority in our due time. Let's agree on that.<BR/>I can understand that you are concerned about a disruption to program your parish (I assume it is yours) is linked to. I hope that your hard work to find an alternative path works. <BR/>"You don't seem to understand that this program is about more than money -- it is about parish-to-parish linkage, and people giving out of the goodness of their hearts for the benefit of other people. "<BR/>Your program always be about people giving out of the goodness of their hearts for the benefit of other people.<BR/>Sadly it will not be about parish to parish linkage unless the communion between TEC and ACT is restored.<BR/>And to talk about the causes of that would be to get into matters that you are probably as weary as I in discussing.<BR/>If I were the Tanzanians I would have let the matter of giving programs rest until the other communion matters were addressed. I guess some would have accused them of hypocisy in taking TEC money if they took that course.<BR/>I would have born that accusation - but I can understand why they decided not too. <BR/>As to whether you are a liberal or not, I don't know that I have ever tried to find one word to descibe your theology which seems to me to be nuamced and generous. And even If I had concluded your were "liberal" I assure you that I would not think that meant you measured things by dollars. I am sure there are plenty of "liberals" who give liberally and live lives more sacrificial than mine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166055000502705992006-12-13T19:10:00.000-05:002006-12-13T19:10:00.000-05:00Obadiahslope, Unless you live in a very strange mo...Obadiahslope, <BR/><BR/>Unless you live in a very strange moral world, those who are the proximate cause of an action have the primary responsibility for it. The actions of TEC in no way "forced" those in ACT to take the action they did -- this was their free choice, and will be held responsible for it by a higher authority than you or I. I don't see it as a matter of blame, but of responsibility.<BR/><BR/>And <I>I am not "insisting"</I> that the program in question only be funded as it has been. I merely observe that a functioning program has been disrupted by the ACT action. In fact, we are working very hard to find a way around this impasse -- working here and with friends in Tanzania. If that can be done anonymously -- to allow the ACT bishops allow money through under the table while appearing to maintain their righteous indignation -- well, it wouldn't be the first time. All I care about is seeing the ministry accomplished, and I resent the roadblock these Bishops have placed in the path.<BR/><BR/><I>You</I> don't seem to understand that this program is about more than money -- it is about parish-to-parish linkage, and people giving out of the goodness of their hearts for the benefit of other people. Hard as it might be for you to understand, we "liberals" do not measure everything by the almighty dollar -- American, Nigerian, or Australian.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, how do you defend the action of the ACT bishops? Is this gospel behavior? What text can you cite from our Lord on that one, Obadiah?Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166053913262639242006-12-13T18:51:00.000-05:002006-12-13T18:51:00.000-05:00At this point it becomes moot about who is to blam...At this point it becomes moot about who is to blame. Is it the Tanzanian bishops who do not want to be in relationship with TEC, or is it Tobias who seems to insist that this particular program can only be funded church to church?<BR/>Perhaps it is both.<BR/> (If there are rules they can surely be changed. Get a local catholic church to send the money. Or donate anonymously as our Lord would suggest we do).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166049726969131732006-12-13T17:42:00.000-05:002006-12-13T17:42:00.000-05:00Dear Anonymous,Perhaps a real life example will he...Dear Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Perhaps a real life example will help you understand why this is not a red herring. I am peronsally involved in a particular program that works through Anglican parishes in Tanzania. Yes, I could certainly send funds to other church's projects or to non-church projects. But the specific program in question will suffer unless some way can be found <I>on their end</I> for the Anglican Tanzanian bishops to allow the funds to come through. We are not talking about vague or generic programs here, with interchangable "poor," but specific programs for specific people, some having been in operation for years, and which will now suffer a major loss of funding because of the actions of some of the Tanzanian bishops. This is very far from a red herring: it involves specific individuals no longer receiving aid that some bishops are choosing to obstruct. I hope you understand the difference between random philanthropy and church-to-church programs. It may be all the same to you, but it won't be to the children deprived by this refusal.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166048590706144782006-12-13T17:23:00.000-05:002006-12-13T17:23:00.000-05:00If the idea is to help the poor and not control th...If the idea is to help the poor and not control the recipient, support a work of the RC or Presbyterian church. Are the poor involved in Anglican church sponsored programs so unique that only they are deserving of being helped by ERD or UTO? The argument is truly a red herring.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166047184385732112006-12-13T16:59:00.000-05:002006-12-13T16:59:00.000-05:00Dear Anonymous Red Herring,I think you are missing...Dear Anonymous Red Herring,<BR/>I think you are missing the point of the argument if you think it is a Red Herring: most of the funds that go from TEC to Tanzania can only go there through the Bishops' offices. I suppose UTO and ERD could change their rules to allow for direct grants to secular programs -- but what about the church-run and church-operated programs that can't be funded without the church knowing?Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166045409375304492006-12-13T16:30:00.000-05:002006-12-13T16:30:00.000-05:00TEC can continue to support the poor in Tanzania a...TEC can continue to support the poor in Tanzania and Uganda, spending whatever it sees fit to spend. The Bishop has simply said, don't send it to me and make me your agent in distributing the money. No one is deprived of anything if TEC chooses to aid "the poor" in Tanzania, Uganda or anywhere else. This is a "red herring" argument.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166041495106095132006-12-13T15:24:00.000-05:002006-12-13T15:24:00.000-05:00"My guess is that before they made the decision th..."My guess is that before they made the decision they factored in that they won't be really losing any American money. . ."<BR/><BR/>Forgive me, J.J., but that is just a guess.<BR/><BR/>What I find most disturbing is that the bishops, even if only in principle, are betting their righteousness in this matter at the risk of those who have the least say over their own lives (those living in abject poverty). I find that appalling in light of the Gospel.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07474786207149076221noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166028817034559702006-12-13T11:53:00.000-05:002006-12-13T11:53:00.000-05:00I think they are doing this not because of "taint"...I think they are doing this not because of "taint" but primarily because it is the clearest, most concrete, and strongest way of saying, "we are no longer in relationship." It is just a symbol. I can also see the appearance of bribery argument. It may be irrational, but that is a charge that has been floating around and they might want to forcefully refute it. <BR/><BR/>My guess is that before they made the decision they factored in that they won't be really losing any American money (or not as much as if might seem). It will now just be coming from Anglican Relief and Development, and the conservative radicals with deep pockets who will be eager now to send the funds they are redirecting from TEC there. Sadly, it is just another sign of the effort to realign the Communion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1166023000356426042006-12-13T10:16:00.000-05:002006-12-13T10:16:00.000-05:00On another blog someone has suggested that the iss...On another blog someone has suggested that the issue with TEC money isn't some sort of "taint" but the sense in which these funds represent a bribe or coercion for support. <BR/><BR/>It is probably true that the issue is not "taint" <I>per se</I>; but to suggest bribery or coercion begs the question of bribery towards <I>what</I>? I mean, we work with Methodists and Presbyterians in the WCC and NCC and other traditions even further removed from our own on joint relief efforts, and never suggest that these other religious bodies need to approve of TEC's internal policies or practices.<BR/><BR/>If the Tanzanians and Ugandans are "being bought" then one should ask if we were getting what we paid for! The funds from TEC have <I>never</I> had such "strings" attached, in a quid pro quo for support of internal decisions of TEC. Ironic that this accusation of "chicken dinners" and bribes at Lambeth 1998 has now somehow been turned on its head! Relief money to help the poor and suffering is really a bribe to bishops!<BR/><BR/>The only real "string" in all of this is "communion" -- binding us together: that is, UTO and ERD work through the ecclesial structures of the Anglican Communion, and require the approval of the diocesan bishop (for the grant, not the grantor!) to make an international grant. By severing (or "impairing") communion these bishops are cutting off the lifeline -- to others. An objectively immoral act in itself, and hardly likely to help us carry out any movement towards a future covenant, or listening process.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.com