tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post115144623925923539..comments2023-12-17T16:13:06.670-05:00Comments on In a Godward direction: Canterbury's Latest ThoughtsTobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151904680658579342006-07-03T00:31:00.000-05:002006-07-03T00:31:00.000-05:00I think that poor Rowan is trying to do the best h...I think that poor Rowan is trying to do the best he can to hold together the communion. It is not a bad solution.<BR/><BR/>ECUSA needs to consider the greater mission of the church and the need for the Episcopal Church to remain faithful to the central gospel truths of love and inclusivity (rather than exclusion). Jesus said that he was the "The Way, the Truth...." and that no man comes to the Father but through Him. ECUSA must indeed follow Christ and arrive at the father through the way of Christ (love, sacrifice and so on). It would be so easy for ECUSA to bow to pressure to remain on the inside and distance itself from what amount to civil rights issues that directly reflect on their following the gospel. ECUSA should be applauded for sticking to what they believe is a living out of the Gospel message.<BR/><BR/>Some say wait but if so when? If not now to include women in the full life of the Church (eg Primate)...when? If not now to include all who follow the message of Christ (including those whose orientation differs from the majority)...when? If we waited for the most opportune time and acceptance by all, the US would still have slaves. <BR/><BR/>It takes those of courage to say that there is something fundamentally wrong in our treatment of others and to try and change it. Christ did it. I cannot imagine Christ waiting around for the Sanhedrin (and so on) to come to some acceptance of his mission and message and reach an understanding (possibly putting the whole thing on hold for several years while it was studied). Instead He reached out in the present and regardless of negative reaction to doing what was right. ECUSA is trying to follow the example of Christ. This must be done with dignity, respect and love.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151709530653293612006-06-30T18:18:00.000-05:002006-06-30T18:18:00.000-05:00I concur, Prior A., with your assessment that Ruth...I concur, Prior A., with your assessment that Ruth G. has overestimated +Rowan's devices and desires. Everything is happening so quickly in the Global South, and the various regions of the US that seem hasty to respond. +Rowan is calling for the beginning of a long process, and who knows what the eventual Covenant might say. I'd venture it won't be the language of the Synod of Dort, as some appear to hope.<BR/><BR/>By the way, has anyone else noticed that the preponderance of fossil fuels in any given area (So. California, Western Pennsylvania, parts of Texas, and Nigeria) and emissions from these regions may be linked with Global South Warming? ;-)Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151708788187999902006-06-30T18:06:00.000-05:002006-06-30T18:06:00.000-05:00Tobias --Excellent to meet you at General Conventi...Tobias --<BR/><BR/>Excellent to meet you at General Convention -- I sincerely regret that it was truly no more than that.<BR/><BR/>Although I generally concur with what you say (nothing surprising in that) I am very suspicious of the notion (touted by Ruth Glendhill) that ++Rowan is planning on throwing us out. I could just as easily see "The Global South" refusing to sign on to a Covenant that insisted on the human dignity & equality of "persons with a same sex orientation" & finding themselves in "the second tier".<BR/><BR/>But, seriously, as rapidly as things seem to be moving, it appears that the Global South & their neo-Donatist supporters will already have formed an organization apart from Canterbury ages before the years long process envisaged by ++Rowan is even getting started (part of his nefarious plan?)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151598663030570112006-06-29T11:31:00.000-05:002006-06-29T11:31:00.000-05:00Thank you Lisa. This is the reality that our anony...Thank you Lisa. This is the reality that our anonymous friend fails to "get" -- even if it were true. In fact, the various splinters that have separated themselves from the Episcopal Church over the generations have very little to show for themselves. I am reminded of the old cartoon of the man sitting out on a limb and gleefully sawing it away from the tree. <BR/><BR/>As for the Episcopal Church, it will continue to thrive since it is following the Gospel and not a Puritan "orthodoxy" which bears little resemblance to the teaching of Christ. My parish had its first liturgy in Igbo this past Sunday, with 36 Nigerians in attendance -- many coming from as far away as Brooklyn and Queens. They are here because we preach the Gospel, not some form of works-righteousness, that will ultimately further splinter and sputter under the burden of its impossible task.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151597786717693922006-06-29T11:16:00.000-05:002006-06-29T11:16:00.000-05:00Tobias, thanks for your reflections. I note the An...Tobias, thanks for your reflections. I note the Anonymous comment above that refers to TEC being "marginalized," as if that's a bad thing. Your perspective makes me think maybe it's a good thing, and an effective way to counter our Western imperial tendencies. <BR/><BR/>I also appreciate what I hear as your thoughts about structure vs. mission. The Archbishop and the ACN/AAC/IRD comitatus seem very, very much concerned with structural issues-- who's in and who's out, who gets the Anglican "franchise," etc. But what does any of that really mean in real life? Our diocese has a companion relationship with the Diocese of Lui in Sudan, and I spent 12 days there this spring. We're doing some very good things together. If they stay at the adult table and we move to the kids' table, I do not believe that will have an iota of impact on the mission and ministry we are doing together, the lives we are changing, the hearts we are changing. <BR/><BR/>Maybe this whole structural brouhaha is merely Much Ado about Nothing.Lisa Foxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00881671380217888810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151595866100781702006-06-29T10:44:00.000-05:002006-06-29T10:44:00.000-05:00It was great to read in the San Francisco Chronicl...It was great to read in the San Francisco Chronicle about the 4 dioseses today that had the courage to leave TEC and seek refuge under the auspices of more theologically biblical bishops from Africa. <BR/><BR/>The Episcopal Church is rapidly becoming marginalised and will continue to loose membership until it returns to orthodoxy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151571206245861892006-06-29T03:53:00.000-05:002006-06-29T03:53:00.000-05:00Thanks for the thoughts. Glad to hear words hopefu...Thanks for the thoughts. Glad to hear words hopeful for the twin track part. Wrote this earlier on Thinking Anglicans and cross-posting here:<BR/><BR/>"The form and idea of a covenant is good; but its function is perverted by partisan wrestling of its meanings. I don't think it is possible to sustain the myth of communion by imperialist coercion into a model of being church. Better it is to give space to a koinonia forming from grassroot relationships. A two-tiered structure might just provide an opening for that. I am quite certain that such a simplistic model for an Anglican federation will quickly diversify into different networks of relationships. <BR/><BR/>I think it augurs well too for the future of our ecumenical connections beyond our parochial provinciality to begin identifying parts of our Anglican provinces as 'like the Methodists'.<BR/><BR/>I am glad to see our communion moving towards a post-colonial identity."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151551277924241102006-06-28T22:21:00.000-05:002006-06-28T22:21:00.000-05:00Tobias, Greg again -- OK -- Bearing is driving me ...Tobias, Greg again -- OK -- Bearing is driving me nuts. The mission of the Church is the mission of Jesus Christ -- and yes the mission of Jesus Christ is far more expansive than "getting people into heaven." The mission of Jesus Christ appears to be rather plain in all of his teachings, and most of those have to do with loving God, loving neighbor as self. This implies a complete embrace of God's creation, which itself is to be redeemed by the saving work of Jesus Christ. "Heaven" is not the issue -- the New Creation is. It is this new creation which Jesus births - and of which he is the first born. Through him who made the world -- all are made over again. I'm seeing lots of physical earthly justice implications here -- not too much about "getting folk into heaven" presumably after they are buried.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151542775718131072006-06-28T19:59:00.000-05:002006-06-28T19:59:00.000-05:00No--nobody gets to Hell of their own power. That i...No--nobody gets to Hell of their own power. That is absurd. You cannot even breathe, even exist for one second on your own power--how then will you get to Hell that way? Do not try to put yourself in the place of your Creator; you are merely the created.The Anglican Scotisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09715779952262032127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151541942445448072006-06-28T19:45:00.000-05:002006-06-28T19:45:00.000-05:00Do you think it's possible that some might get to ...Do you think it's possible that some might get to Hell under their own power?bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151540639314708752006-06-28T19:23:00.000-05:002006-06-28T19:23:00.000-05:00OK: here is a theory.At the core of the biblical n...OK: here is a theory.<BR/><BR/>At the core of the biblical notion of holiness is our being set apart for the use of God, with the understanding that we are not in our "fallen" state already available to God.<BR/><BR/>Holiness is not achieved by obeying rules--that is necessarily always insufficeint. The reductionist tendency to read holiness as nothing over and above a set of rules, evident in your critics here, is just the type of legalism so tempting to us in all ages which Jesus protested in the Pharisees of his day. <BR/><BR/>The holiness code in the OT operates with a background notion of perfection or wholeness, and behind that an inchoate apprehension of ideal types. They may have figured our being set apart for God's use implies an approach to God, entering God's domain as he dwells among us. <BR/><BR/>Philosophically put, the OT effort to be holy, i.e. obeying the holiness code, implies an effort to become godly or to participate in the nature of divinity. <BR/><BR/>Thus, holiness an participation in divinity are the linked terms, with the holiness code as the middle, mediating the two for us: we participate achieving holiness via obedience to the Code.<BR/><BR/>We still as Christians participate in divinity, becoming holy--think of our sacramental life as participation in the Person of God in Christ.<BR/><BR/>But whereas the Hebrews has the Code as their mediator, from our point of view an exteriorized version of the Logos, we have the very Logos in the Person of Christ. We have no need of the Law in the sense of a Code when we have the very Person of God mediating our particiaption in God. This is what it means to have Christ as our one and only mediator. <BR/><BR/>That is not good enough for your critics--they want something else in addition. Christ being insufficient, bring back the Law! This is pathetic--quoting Paul to subvert Paul, and getting all huffy and red-faced too.The Anglican Scotisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09715779952262032127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151528888014583192006-06-28T16:08:00.000-05:002006-06-28T16:08:00.000-05:00Anonymous,I suppose many people take comfort in im...Anonymous,<BR/>I suppose many people take comfort in imagining themeselves to possess a degree of holiness that others lack. Jesus does not appear to be interested in this category. He chose many weak vessels to bear his message: Peter, Paul, the Samaritan woman, and so on. <BR/><BR/>If nothing else, this discussion shows that obsession with personal holiness (defined primarily in terms of other people's sexuality, it seems) is obviously at the heart of the neo-Puritan movement characterized by the folks at Christ Church Plano. Such movements will always be popular; that they bear little connection with the Gospel is no matter.<BR/><BR/>I'll take Desmond Tutu over David Roseberry any day.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151528380172525092006-06-28T15:59:00.000-05:002006-06-28T15:59:00.000-05:00According to TEC's church annual, which uses stati...According to TEC's church annual, which uses statistics provided by each parish, Christ Church in Plano, TX is 31st in size nationally based on the number of communicants.<BR/><BR/>Even based on church attendance they are behind by double digits percentage-wise from the church with the largest attendance.<BR/><BR/>Me thinks the folks at Christ Church are smokin' something illegal if they think they are the largest.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151527453441221812006-06-28T15:44:00.000-05:002006-06-28T15:44:00.000-05:00Personal holiness not important for serving? Aside...Personal holiness not important for serving? Aside from the various citations already mentioned above by Jesus, you might try the rest of the Bible. Romans 12 is a good place to start for the basics of servant leadership: "Present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice... Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed.."<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, theological liberalism is not only untenable exigetically and contrary to 2000 years of the faith, in purely pragmatic terms it leads to empty, moribund churches. <BR/><BR/>By the way, the largest and most dynamic of our American Anglican churches--Christ Church Plano--just today left the Episcopal denomination. Many soon will folow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151525724024192402006-06-28T15:15:00.000-05:002006-06-28T15:15:00.000-05:00Dear Bearing,I am paraphrasing the language of the...Dear Bearing,<BR/>I am paraphrasing the language of the Catechism in the Book of Common Prayer. Unity in Christ is the ultimate "meaning" of heaven. We none of us get there under our own power, and no one is allowed in unless carrying someone else or being carried.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151523260048712012006-06-28T14:34:00.000-05:002006-06-28T14:34:00.000-05:00Bearing, as I'm sure you know, the mission of the ...<I>Bearing, as I'm sure you know, the mission of the church is to promote the unity of all people in Christ. </I><BR/><BR/>I thought the mission of the Church was to lead people to Heaven.bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151517293263766992006-06-28T12:54:00.000-05:002006-06-28T12:54:00.000-05:00(Dave) I don't disagree with your focus, Tobias. ...(Dave) I don't disagree with your focus, Tobias. It should be about ministry. All of our ministries would be enhanced by putting this conflict behind us but it is not going to go away. And so just as Moses spoke God's word to Pharaoh when Israel was in Egypt land: "let my people go!" And TEC should do as Pharaoh did and give the departing their flocks and belongings. Now personally, I came into the world with nothing and I am happy to leave TEC with nothing but some don't see it that way. Since others are yoked to the buildings and properties, it would free all of us to focus on ministry if this issue could be dealt with fairly. Then all of us could get on with building the Kingdom in the ways we feel called to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151517144229032652006-06-28T12:52:00.000-05:002006-06-28T12:52:00.000-05:00As far as I am concerned, debates of personal choi...As far as I am concerned, debates of personal choices and preferences can wait while we concentrate on the good ministry of the Episcopal Church. We have yet much to do: teen pregnancy, HIV infection rate, homelessness, the list goes on.<BR/><BR/>Why are we focusing on what should be left for God to judge, if "judging" of one's holiness is to be executed, while we should be reaching out, carrying out His works?<BR/><BR/>And if the Episcopal churches in Asia and Africa have such a huge problem, then they are presented an opportunity to deal with it, as we are learning how to deal with their disapproval. <BR/><BR/>I am from Asia, and there is a reason I am here worshipping within the sanctuary of the US Episcopal Church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151516878387071352006-06-28T12:47:00.000-05:002006-06-28T12:47:00.000-05:00Tobias, your invitation to accept being at the sec...Tobias, your invitation to accept being at the second tier/ downstairs/children's table in a spirit of humility and appreciation for the ability to get out and do more of the ministry we really want to do rather than worry so much about the rigths and responsibilities of upper tiers reminds me of some of the dynamics that I and other lgbt folks deal with already in the church. It's that problem of being too queer a priest for any parish other than those that are on the edge. I love being in small, struggling urban parishes because there's more room for all the rough edges of life to celerbated and less expectation of gentility. At the same time I am always aware of and struggle with resentment at the fact that my and other lgbt people's choices are limited by nothing more than sheer anti-queer bias, a bias ultimately on the part of a larger church (on the ground, a diocesan) structure that does not have the will to challenge search committees in larger, more middle and upper class parishes to broaden their seaches. Being in a position of choosing a different vocational trajectory brings with it deep spiritual challenges the first of which involves truly acknowlegding one's different status within the larger structural context and actively dealing with anger about that, not only appreciating the increased freedoms that come with being at a different table (real as those freedoms can be at points). How to deal spiritually with being rendered second-class, with being infantalized, basically? This is a question that out queer priests I know, including myself, deal with on a regular, even daily basis. It seems like TEC is getting to a place where it will have to deal with such questions for itself as a whole. Will this experience cause the various dioceses of TEC to get better at dealing with those who queer the genteel norms of its more 'traditional' parishes?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151514400510438502006-06-28T12:06:00.000-05:002006-06-28T12:06:00.000-05:00Again a response to some continued questions:Beari...Again a response to some continued questions:<BR/><BR/>Bearing, I am not suggesting that Jesus said that it was proper to sin. I am stating that "holiness" is not about sin or the absence of it. Jesus does not call for holiness, but he does give a summary of the law for the avoidance of sin. These are two different things.<BR/><BR/>So the question becomes: is same sex behavior always sinful. I think not. Scripture has been distorted by those who wish to uphold that view, but it cannot be demonstrably proven that same-sex sexuality is culpable (according to Scripture) in any cases other than idolatry, rape, adultery, or prostitution. Obviously the Law of Moses restricts <I>male</I> same-sex sexuality (with no mention of lesbianism), but this is exactly part of the holiness code, and is explicitly (in the text) not about sin, but impurity. The behavior in question is labeled "to'evah." Ultimately Christians are not bound by these laws.<BR/><BR/>Dave, you are correct to note I am talking about Jesus, not Paul. Paul, good Pharisee that he was, was torn throughout his ministry between the ideals of Christ and the gravitational force of his own upbringing and culture.<BR/><BR/>The text from Ephesians which you cite also raises the issue of the extent to which our present heterosexist culture continues to distort the Scripture. The translation of <I>porneia</I> under a broad heading of "sexual immorality" (conveniently thus lumping together anything one wishes to condemn) is unfounded, though sadly common. <I>Porneia</I> means prostitution, and figuratively, idolatry. It is necessary in Jewish law to distinguish from adultery, since under the Law a man did not incur the penalty of adultery against his own wife. There is no instance of the use of <I>porneia</I> or its related words that necessarily implies anything other than these two meanings, though many insist on taking that implication.<BR/><BR/>Bearing, as I'm sure you know, the mission of the church is to promote the unity of all people in Christ. That is best achieved by following his advice, "Love one another" and "Do not judge." Unfortunately, the church appears to have chosen to ignore the latter commandment, and instead of being a fellowship of sinners all redeemed by one Lord, tends to be an exclusive club of self-approved moral busibodies.<BR/><BR/>Stephen, Thanks for the link. While it makes some good distinctions between impurity and sin (as I have been trying to do here) I found the article very unconvincing as to the basic premise, and straining at the obvious rejections Jesus makes concerning the purity code. (As well as the questionable assertion that because the apostles were still arguing about food that Jesus didn't really address the matter. We have to deal with the canonical, not historical Jesus, in this regard; the Gospels may well have been framed in response to the experience of the early church, and the epistles.) The ulimate evidence presented, only arrived at after a number of I think quite extraneous arguments, that Jesus ate the Passover and visited the Temple, and therefore must have been in a state of ritual purity is, IMHO, rather weak.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again to all for the comments. I fear we are straying from the primary import of my essay, however, which is about how we as a church, in whatever relation to the other churches of the Communion, can continue to do God's mission and ministry, in spite of our differences on matters which, from a Scriptural perspective, are of little importance.Tobias Stanislas Haller BSGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08047429477181560685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151509029837856422006-06-28T10:37:00.000-05:002006-06-28T10:37:00.000-05:00(Dave) Orperhps you might prefer this one from St...(Dave) Orperhps you might prefer this one from St. Paul: "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151508082539305652006-06-28T10:21:00.000-05:002006-06-28T10:21:00.000-05:00(Dave) Tobias was very careful to say that JESUS n...(Dave) Tobias was very careful to say that JESUS never speaks the words that we are to be/live holy lives. Of course, Scripture is replete with that injunction, witness "But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do." Of course, that was the Apostle Peter and not Jesus, but no doubt we know better than did Peter what Jesus thought about holiness.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151507037286813002006-06-28T10:03:00.000-05:002006-06-28T10:03:00.000-05:00What is the Church's mission?What is the Church's mission?bearinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07953735060133330755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151506535170195652006-06-28T09:55:00.000-05:002006-06-28T09:55:00.000-05:00This is a last attempt to try and hold something t...This is a last attempt to try and hold something together.It won'twork.<BR/><BR/>Hurry up and re-organise then the many of us here in the UK who like what ECUSA is about can join you and have a church worth being part ofMerseymikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07231364271812168188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6786565.post-1151505896385146982006-06-28T09:44:00.000-05:002006-06-28T09:44:00.000-05:00Dear Tobias,Thank you for your blog and your lates...Dear Tobias,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your blog and your latest posting. One thought. Are you so sure that Jesus rejected the purity laws (i.e., "it's part of the purity code he rejected")? I used to think that to until I read Paula Fredriksen's article, which can be found here: <BR/><BR/>http://www.bu.edu/religion/faculty/bios/fredriksen/purity_laws.pdf<BR/><BR/>Enjoy!<BR/><BR/>StephenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com